Door to Door

Dang it is freeeezing here! Sorry we were unable to post anything last night, after long conversations and getting stuck in the snow numerous times, we needed to debrief a little. So tonight there will most likely be two posts. One from yesterday and one from what we are doing today.


People warned us a blizzard was coming, but us Orange County kids were not prepared for driving in the snow! Mary and I (Courtney) were unable to make it to Provo yesterday because of the weather conditions. We met up with Shane's cousin for lunch, and barely made it back to the Blue House! We literally were sliding home on ice and got stuck about 5 times. At one point we had to reverse, and literally glided down the hill with no control of the car, pretty scary! Thus, we decided to take a little bit of a low-key day, filled with studying, conversation and a little door to door in Ogden.
I (Courtney) was a little skeptical about the door to door approach, just because I always had the impression that it is ineffective. We decided to start with street behind the blue house. The first house we went to Mary knocked on the door and said:
 "Hi my name is Mary and this is my friend Courtney. We're Christian missionaries from Orange County California. We've been learning about other religions and decided Utah would be the perfect place to learn more about the LDS culture and history of the Church. If you have any time we were wondering if you can answer a few questions we had? Or else we have a radio schedule for you from AM 820 Christian Radio."


Surprisingly the first couple we met was a Baptist minister and wife who recently moved to Utah to serve as the pastor of a Hispanic Christian Church!  They invited us into their home, and discussed their ministry and growth of their church. What an inspiration! The most memorable statement the Pastor (we forgot his name) said to us was, " I know there will be a revival here in Utah very soon. The growth of Christian churches and believers has increased tremendously--but we still need more Biblical believers."
After conversing with this couple for about 20 minutes we decided to head out to more homes in search of conversation. Many accepted our fliers graciously but then refused the invitation to converse with us.
We finally found a couple willing to answer our questions and concerns... but that's Mary's post haha. Here's Mary.... 

Courtney and I (Mary) continued walking up the street, knocking on every door with our AM820 pamphlets in hand.  We were rejected by a lot of people, and started to feel like we weren’t going to get anywhere.  We walked up to a quaint brick house and agreed that it would be our last for the night.  A young woman with blonde hair opened the door.  We gave her our Christian missionary shpeele, which she seemed uninterested in.  Her husband creeped in the back, holding their 2 year-old son.  She told us that it wasn’t a good time for them, but that they would give us a call sometime this week.   So, we gave them a pamphlet, along with our contact information on it, and went on our way.

We walked back into the blue house, kicked off our shoes, and plopped on the couch.  Who knew walking in a foot of snow would take so much out us?  Oh California girls... We started to take off some layers of clothing, thinking the night was over, until Courtney’s phone started to ring.  The number was unknown, but we had a good feeling about it.  All I heard was “Oh hi!  Ya. Okay. Cool. 3675. Great, we will be there in 5. Okay bye!”  The young couple who we had just met, wanted to talk with us!  We quickly put on our snow boots and jackets and went out the back door.  I started getting nervous.  There is something so incredibly awkward about knocking on random doors and talking to people about Jesus.  Why is this?  Both Courtney and I have a lot more respect for elders!  Here we are doing this for 2 weeks, when Mormon boys give up 2 years.

We didn’t even make it to the door step before the young women, Becky, opened the door for us.  Her husband, Justin, shook our hand and invited us in.  Of course this sounded appealing to us as our lips shook violently.  We kicked off our shoes and sat on their couch.  The typical questions came up: “Why are you here?” and “What church are you out here with?”  Courtney and I both decided to be honest and upfront right from the start.

We both have been studying Mormonism for awhile, we have LDS friends, and have visited wards.  But, we have questions.

The conversation took off from here.  The awkwardness left us, and we began to converse with this couple, hoping to share with them the good news of the grace giving Gospel of the real Jesus Christ.

Our first question: grace.  I took them to Ephesians.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8+9

The Bible views salvation by grace alone, not by works.

Then, I took them to their scripture to prove the point further.

“for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” 2 Nephi 25:23

These two verses seem to contradict each other.  It’s almost as if Joseph Smith had copied the first part of Ephesians 2:8, and then added his own doctrine at the end.  Weird...

I asked for some more clarification: “Are works necessary for salvation?”  He said no.  Okay!  Something we agree upon.  But this philosophy didn’t last very long.  It sounded like our idea of grace was completely different.

Grace in the bible is a free gift!  Grace in the Mormon church is not free.  You have to work for it and prove yourself to be worthy enough for it.  This is not the good news of the Gospel.

For any Mormons who are reading this blog: we can’t work our way to heaven.  We can’t do anything to increase or decrease our ‘degree of glory’.  Why?  Because it has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with God.  He first gave us grace, and all we need to do is accept it.  Here is some scripture:

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9

-Jesus makes it simple.  No strings attached.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6: 28+29

-The only work necessary is to believe.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:21-23

-Righteousness does not come from keeping the law.

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.” Romans 4:2

-Works justify us here on earth to others, but not God.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5

-We are counted as righteous when we don’t work but have faith.

Okay let’s switch gears a little, and see what Mormonism teaches about salvation.

“I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” Nephi 3:7

-each person must endure his faithfulness, keeping all the Lord’s commandments, until the end of his life on earth.

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” Moroni 10:32

-God’s grace is sufficient for you if you “deny yourself of all ungodliness.”

“Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive.  And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.” D&C 25:15

-Salvation is contingent on what we do.

Okay Now let’s take a look at what past LDS prophets have said about salvation.

“One of the fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus alone is all that is needed for salvation.”  -Spencer Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness

“Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking.  There must be works- many works- and an all out total surrender...” Spencer Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness

“Indeed it is only after a person has so performed a lifetime of works and faithfulness- only after he has come to deny himself of all ungodliness and every worldly lust...” Joseph F. McConkie

Eventually, both Becky and Justin agreed that there are certain things the LDS believe are necessary for Celestial Kingdom.  Here they are:

1. Must be baptized and confirmed a member of the church.
2. Must receive the Holy Ghost.
3. Must receive temple endowments.
4. Must be married for time and eternity.
5. Love God and worship Him.
6. Have faith in Jesus.
7. Live the law of chastity.
8. Repent of all wrongdoings.
9. Pay honest tithes.
10. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
11. Listen and obey the words of the prophets.
12. Do temple work on behalf of the dead.

There are more laws and covenants, but these are the main ones.  It’s clear to see that there is a prominent difference between the Bible and LDS doctrine. Justin did bring up the James  passage where it says:

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” James 2:17

For lack of time, here is an excerpt from carm.org.  Read it in full here

There is no contradiction.  All you need to do is look at the context.  James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14).  In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt.  It is empty of life and action.  He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions.  Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God.  James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).  But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith.  James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.  Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.  Take it away Courtney! 






I (Courtney) wanted to add a little more about what I got out of the conversation with the LDS couple. Towards the end of the conversation, Mary decided to switch subjects a little. 
Mary asked, "I don't know if you're aware of this quote, but I've heard before the quote from the 5th Prophet Lorenzo Snow, 
'As man is...God once was...As God is...man may be.' Can you explain that quote if you've heard of it before?" 


Without hesitation Justin responded, "Yes of course! We believe that like our God of this world, we can progress in heaven to become like God, and rule over our own universe: populating spirit children of a new world." 
Wow. No matter how many times I (Courtney) hear this... it still blows my mind. And surprisingly the couple flat out agreed. Many LDS members seem to avoid that topic. 


Mary responded, "Wait I don't understand. So there are many gods, ruling over different planets?" 


Becky stated, "Yes exactly. But we just worship the God of this universe. Wait... don't you both believe that?" 


Mary and I turned to each other and stated... "Absolutely not." 


"But doesn't that take away from the glory of God if we are able to be like him?" I (Courtney) questioned. 


" OH not at all... we still worship the God of this universe." 


Wait what? That is circular reasoning i thought to myself. How can a God of one universe worship a God of another universe. And if so... then many gods would be worshiping the one God of this universe. And it just keeps going in circles! How can there be more than one god? Belief in more than one God is polytheistic isn't it?  
And even if they deny the belief in worshiping another god, if we believe that we can become like God, that completely defeats the whole purpose of works, grace, and the righteousness of God. In reality, Mormons are working towards Godhood, not towards bring glory to Jesus Christ! 


Lets think of the theology behind their belief of Godhood. If God was once a man that was a spirit of another God, there had to be a beginning.  And that beginning had to be a man. The progression they support is 
Man->God->Man->God->Man->God->Man->God.............-> 
Therefore, God had to be a man who could not have created other planets. How could God have survived as a man without a planet to stand on? It just doesn't make sense. If you look at the scriptures, it states the eternal, everlasting qualities of God. 


Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 
Pretty self explanatory 


Isaiah 44:6


Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 


Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:


I (Courtney)  remember my LDS friend asked me once, "But don't you want to progress in heaven? Eternity is a long time to stay at the same place." Wow. I think about that question a lot and ask myself... what does heaven have to do with me? It has everything to do with glorifying God. In heaven, I hope I'm not focusing on uplifting myself or family to Godhood. Some may think, well the Book of Mormon has restored this in his completed revelations. Yet, when talking about the important issue of human deification--I think God would have mentioned that topic in the Bible...


 How is human deification Christ centered? Ehh...it's not. Yes he wants us to strive to be like him in his actions, love, and his compassion towards others, but in no way does He tell his people to be worshipped as He is. There is one God. That's it.  


I had a lot more on this topic but sadly Mary's computer froze in the car when we were at temple square today and we lost most of our draft. But, just to conclude on our door to door experience.... the couple that we talked to was so gracious and loving, just as we were in return. There was respect between all four of us and ended with hugs and understanding. Mary and I are convinced a seed was planted last night, because until that night they believed Christians and Mormons believed many of the same doctrine. We encourage you to pray for Justin and Becky in their walk with the Lord. 


Here's a little conclusion from Mary about the conversation we had with the LDS couple. 








I (Mary) believe the quote by Lorenzo Snow is blasphemous in its very core.  In fact, if you are familiar with the Fall, in Genesis 3, Satan proposes this very same lie to Adam and Eve.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:1-6

It is almost as if Mormons are falling into the same original sin that Adam and Eve fell into: the idea that we can become gods.  The Bible teaches the exact opposite of this philosophy.  Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

If there are any Mormons reading this blog: we cannot become gods.  Why?  Because salvation has nothing to do with us and everything to do with God.  He first gave us grace, and all we need to do is accept it.

To conclude our 2.5 hour-long conversation, we agreed that Mormonism and Christianity are indeed separate.  In all the conversations I have had with the LDS, this has never been the case.  Here are the things we agreed to disagree on.

1. Meaning of grace

2. Meaning of repentance

3. The trinity

4. The Deity

5. Heaven and Hell

6. Becoming gods

7. Works according to salvation

8. pre-existence

In conclusion, Mormons are not Christians, and Christians are not Mormons.

Prayer for:

~Becky and Justin

~relationships

~safety

~christian ministries out here!

We love and thank you all,

Courtney & Mary