Door to Door

Dang it is freeeezing here! Sorry we were unable to post anything last night, after long conversations and getting stuck in the snow numerous times, we needed to debrief a little. So tonight there will most likely be two posts. One from yesterday and one from what we are doing today.


People warned us a blizzard was coming, but us Orange County kids were not prepared for driving in the snow! Mary and I (Courtney) were unable to make it to Provo yesterday because of the weather conditions. We met up with Shane's cousin for lunch, and barely made it back to the Blue House! We literally were sliding home on ice and got stuck about 5 times. At one point we had to reverse, and literally glided down the hill with no control of the car, pretty scary! Thus, we decided to take a little bit of a low-key day, filled with studying, conversation and a little door to door in Ogden.
I (Courtney) was a little skeptical about the door to door approach, just because I always had the impression that it is ineffective. We decided to start with street behind the blue house. The first house we went to Mary knocked on the door and said:
 "Hi my name is Mary and this is my friend Courtney. We're Christian missionaries from Orange County California. We've been learning about other religions and decided Utah would be the perfect place to learn more about the LDS culture and history of the Church. If you have any time we were wondering if you can answer a few questions we had? Or else we have a radio schedule for you from AM 820 Christian Radio."


Surprisingly the first couple we met was a Baptist minister and wife who recently moved to Utah to serve as the pastor of a Hispanic Christian Church!  They invited us into their home, and discussed their ministry and growth of their church. What an inspiration! The most memorable statement the Pastor (we forgot his name) said to us was, " I know there will be a revival here in Utah very soon. The growth of Christian churches and believers has increased tremendously--but we still need more Biblical believers."
After conversing with this couple for about 20 minutes we decided to head out to more homes in search of conversation. Many accepted our fliers graciously but then refused the invitation to converse with us.
We finally found a couple willing to answer our questions and concerns... but that's Mary's post haha. Here's Mary.... 

Courtney and I (Mary) continued walking up the street, knocking on every door with our AM820 pamphlets in hand.  We were rejected by a lot of people, and started to feel like we weren’t going to get anywhere.  We walked up to a quaint brick house and agreed that it would be our last for the night.  A young woman with blonde hair opened the door.  We gave her our Christian missionary shpeele, which she seemed uninterested in.  Her husband creeped in the back, holding their 2 year-old son.  She told us that it wasn’t a good time for them, but that they would give us a call sometime this week.   So, we gave them a pamphlet, along with our contact information on it, and went on our way.

We walked back into the blue house, kicked off our shoes, and plopped on the couch.  Who knew walking in a foot of snow would take so much out us?  Oh California girls... We started to take off some layers of clothing, thinking the night was over, until Courtney’s phone started to ring.  The number was unknown, but we had a good feeling about it.  All I heard was “Oh hi!  Ya. Okay. Cool. 3675. Great, we will be there in 5. Okay bye!”  The young couple who we had just met, wanted to talk with us!  We quickly put on our snow boots and jackets and went out the back door.  I started getting nervous.  There is something so incredibly awkward about knocking on random doors and talking to people about Jesus.  Why is this?  Both Courtney and I have a lot more respect for elders!  Here we are doing this for 2 weeks, when Mormon boys give up 2 years.

We didn’t even make it to the door step before the young women, Becky, opened the door for us.  Her husband, Justin, shook our hand and invited us in.  Of course this sounded appealing to us as our lips shook violently.  We kicked off our shoes and sat on their couch.  The typical questions came up: “Why are you here?” and “What church are you out here with?”  Courtney and I both decided to be honest and upfront right from the start.

We both have been studying Mormonism for awhile, we have LDS friends, and have visited wards.  But, we have questions.

The conversation took off from here.  The awkwardness left us, and we began to converse with this couple, hoping to share with them the good news of the grace giving Gospel of the real Jesus Christ.

Our first question: grace.  I took them to Ephesians.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:Not of works, lest any man should boast.” Ephesians 2:8+9

The Bible views salvation by grace alone, not by works.

Then, I took them to their scripture to prove the point further.

“for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.” 2 Nephi 25:23

These two verses seem to contradict each other.  It’s almost as if Joseph Smith had copied the first part of Ephesians 2:8, and then added his own doctrine at the end.  Weird...

I asked for some more clarification: “Are works necessary for salvation?”  He said no.  Okay!  Something we agree upon.  But this philosophy didn’t last very long.  It sounded like our idea of grace was completely different.

Grace in the bible is a free gift!  Grace in the Mormon church is not free.  You have to work for it and prove yourself to be worthy enough for it.  This is not the good news of the Gospel.

For any Mormons who are reading this blog: we can’t work our way to heaven.  We can’t do anything to increase or decrease our ‘degree of glory’.  Why?  Because it has nothing to do with us, and everything to do with God.  He first gave us grace, and all we need to do is accept it.  Here is some scripture:

“That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.” Romans 10:9

-Jesus makes it simple.  No strings attached.

“Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?  Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6: 28+29

-The only work necessary is to believe.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” Romans 11:6

“But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.”

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:21-23

-Righteousness does not come from keeping the law.

“For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.” Romans 4:2

-Works justify us here on earth to others, but not God.

“But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.” Romans 4:5

-We are counted as righteous when we don’t work but have faith.

Okay let’s switch gears a little, and see what Mormonism teaches about salvation.

“I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them.” Nephi 3:7

-each person must endure his faithfulness, keeping all the Lord’s commandments, until the end of his life on earth.

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.” Moroni 10:32

-God’s grace is sufficient for you if you “deny yourself of all ungodliness.”

“Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive.  And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.” D&C 25:15

-Salvation is contingent on what we do.

Okay Now let’s take a look at what past LDS prophets have said about salvation.

“One of the fallacious doctrines originated by Satan and propounded by man is that man is saved alone by the grace of God; that belief in Jesus alone is all that is needed for salvation.”  -Spencer Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness

“Your Heavenly Father has promised forgiveness upon total repentance and meeting all requirements, but that forgiveness is not granted merely for the asking.  There must be works- many works- and an all out total surrender...” Spencer Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness

“Indeed it is only after a person has so performed a lifetime of works and faithfulness- only after he has come to deny himself of all ungodliness and every worldly lust...” Joseph F. McConkie

Eventually, both Becky and Justin agreed that there are certain things the LDS believe are necessary for Celestial Kingdom.  Here they are:

1. Must be baptized and confirmed a member of the church.
2. Must receive the Holy Ghost.
3. Must receive temple endowments.
4. Must be married for time and eternity.
5. Love God and worship Him.
6. Have faith in Jesus.
7. Live the law of chastity.
8. Repent of all wrongdoings.
9. Pay honest tithes.
10. Obey the Word of Wisdom.
11. Listen and obey the words of the prophets.
12. Do temple work on behalf of the dead.

There are more laws and covenants, but these are the main ones.  It’s clear to see that there is a prominent difference between the Bible and LDS doctrine. Justin did bring up the James  passage where it says:

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” James 2:17

For lack of time, here is an excerpt from carm.org.  Read it in full here

There is no contradiction.  All you need to do is look at the context.  James chapter 2 has 26 verses: Verses 1-7 instruct us not to show favoritism. Verses 8-13 are comments on the Law. Verses 14-26 are about the relationship between faith and works.

James begins this section by using the example of someone who says he has faith but has no works, "What use is it, my brethren, if a man says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14).  In other words, James is addressing the issue of a dead faith, a faith that is nothing more than a verbal pronouncement, a public confession of the mind, and is not heart-felt.  It is empty of life and action.  He begins with the negative and demonstrates what an empty faith is (verses 15-17, words without actions). Then he shows that type of faith isn't any different from the faith of demons (verse 19). Finally, he gives examples of living faith that has words followed by actions.  Works follow true faith and demonstrate that faith to our fellow man, but not to God.  James writes of Abraham and Rahab as examples of people who demonstrated their faith by their deeds.

In brief, James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20).  But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.

Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith.  James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'" If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example.  Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.  Take it away Courtney! 






I (Courtney) wanted to add a little more about what I got out of the conversation with the LDS couple. Towards the end of the conversation, Mary decided to switch subjects a little. 
Mary asked, "I don't know if you're aware of this quote, but I've heard before the quote from the 5th Prophet Lorenzo Snow, 
'As man is...God once was...As God is...man may be.' Can you explain that quote if you've heard of it before?" 


Without hesitation Justin responded, "Yes of course! We believe that like our God of this world, we can progress in heaven to become like God, and rule over our own universe: populating spirit children of a new world." 
Wow. No matter how many times I (Courtney) hear this... it still blows my mind. And surprisingly the couple flat out agreed. Many LDS members seem to avoid that topic. 


Mary responded, "Wait I don't understand. So there are many gods, ruling over different planets?" 


Becky stated, "Yes exactly. But we just worship the God of this universe. Wait... don't you both believe that?" 


Mary and I turned to each other and stated... "Absolutely not." 


"But doesn't that take away from the glory of God if we are able to be like him?" I (Courtney) questioned. 


" OH not at all... we still worship the God of this universe." 


Wait what? That is circular reasoning i thought to myself. How can a God of one universe worship a God of another universe. And if so... then many gods would be worshiping the one God of this universe. And it just keeps going in circles! How can there be more than one god? Belief in more than one God is polytheistic isn't it?  
And even if they deny the belief in worshiping another god, if we believe that we can become like God, that completely defeats the whole purpose of works, grace, and the righteousness of God. In reality, Mormons are working towards Godhood, not towards bring glory to Jesus Christ! 


Lets think of the theology behind their belief of Godhood. If God was once a man that was a spirit of another God, there had to be a beginning.  And that beginning had to be a man. The progression they support is 
Man->God->Man->God->Man->God->Man->God.............-> 
Therefore, God had to be a man who could not have created other planets. How could God have survived as a man without a planet to stand on? It just doesn't make sense. If you look at the scriptures, it states the eternal, everlasting qualities of God. 


Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 
Pretty self explanatory 


Isaiah 44:6


Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. 


Mark 12:32
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:


I (Courtney)  remember my LDS friend asked me once, "But don't you want to progress in heaven? Eternity is a long time to stay at the same place." Wow. I think about that question a lot and ask myself... what does heaven have to do with me? It has everything to do with glorifying God. In heaven, I hope I'm not focusing on uplifting myself or family to Godhood. Some may think, well the Book of Mormon has restored this in his completed revelations. Yet, when talking about the important issue of human deification--I think God would have mentioned that topic in the Bible...


 How is human deification Christ centered? Ehh...it's not. Yes he wants us to strive to be like him in his actions, love, and his compassion towards others, but in no way does He tell his people to be worshipped as He is. There is one God. That's it.  


I had a lot more on this topic but sadly Mary's computer froze in the car when we were at temple square today and we lost most of our draft. But, just to conclude on our door to door experience.... the couple that we talked to was so gracious and loving, just as we were in return. There was respect between all four of us and ended with hugs and understanding. Mary and I are convinced a seed was planted last night, because until that night they believed Christians and Mormons believed many of the same doctrine. We encourage you to pray for Justin and Becky in their walk with the Lord. 


Here's a little conclusion from Mary about the conversation we had with the LDS couple. 








I (Mary) believe the quote by Lorenzo Snow is blasphemous in its very core.  In fact, if you are familiar with the Fall, in Genesis 3, Satan proposes this very same lie to Adam and Eve.

"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened,and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:1-6

It is almost as if Mormons are falling into the same original sin that Adam and Eve fell into: the idea that we can become gods.  The Bible teaches the exact opposite of this philosophy.  Isaiah 43:10 "Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."

If there are any Mormons reading this blog: we cannot become gods.  Why?  Because salvation has nothing to do with us and everything to do with God.  He first gave us grace, and all we need to do is accept it.

To conclude our 2.5 hour-long conversation, we agreed that Mormonism and Christianity are indeed separate.  In all the conversations I have had with the LDS, this has never been the case.  Here are the things we agreed to disagree on.

1. Meaning of grace

2. Meaning of repentance

3. The trinity

4. The Deity

5. Heaven and Hell

6. Becoming gods

7. Works according to salvation

8. pre-existence

In conclusion, Mormons are not Christians, and Christians are not Mormons.

Prayer for:

~Becky and Justin

~relationships

~safety

~christian ministries out here!

We love and thank you all,

Courtney & Mary

Pictures thus far!

Rob&Tara

the camera definitely adds 10 lbs

Temple Square at night

 

Couldn't get in.  Maybe next time?

We are looking to do some door to door in Provo today. Provo is a city located around Brigham Young University.  This appeals to us, because college-aged students live here.  Pray for some good conversations and safety as we share the gospel!

Love you all,

Courtney & Mary

Reunited and it feels so good!

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." Psalm 90:2

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me."  Isaiah 43:10

Unfortunately, LDS doctrine teaches the exact opposite of this. In June of 1840, Lorenzo Snow, the 5th president of the LDS church, stated what would be known as the center doctrine around Mormonism:

"As man is...God once was...as God is...man may become."

At the end of the day, Mormonism is all about yourself, not Christ.

________________________________________________

Folks, Courtney is officially in Utah.  We thank you for all of your prayers and support.  


Since I (Mary) stayed up until 1a.m working on my last blog post, I completely forgot to expand more on the 1 Corinthians 15 passage.  There has been some downtime for me to really dissect this verse.  Here is an article by Matt Slick from carm.org that helps explain the origin of Paul's language in this passage. 

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

1 Corinthians 15:29

"Just north of Corinth was a city named Eleusis. This was the location of a pagan religion where baptism in the sea was practiced to guarantee a good afterlife. This religion was mentioned by Homer in Hymn to Demeter 478-79.  The Corinthians were known to be heavily influenced by other customs. After all, they were in a large economic area where a great many different people frequented. It is probable that the Corinthians were being influenced by the religious practices found at Eleusis where baptism for the dead was practiced.

Paul used this example from the pagans in 1 Corinthians 15:29, when he said, "...if the dead are not raised, then why are they baptized for the dead?" Paul did not say we.

This is significant because the Christian church was not practicing baptism for the dead, but the pagans were."

I encourage you to read the full article here

What a day it has been!  It first started off with an interview at Doris Hanson, from A Shield And Refuge Ministry, right here in Salt Lake.  I was blown away!  
I encourage you all to read Doris's full testimony at this site, but I will share some of the highlights with you.


Doris grew up in a polygamist family: 2 wives and 15 brothers and sisters.  She knew from the early years that she wanted out.  She was only taught the wrath of God.  It was all rules and no relationship.  When she turned 18, she packed up a small box of things and left the polygamist sect.  She wanted nothing to do with religion, until she began thumbing through pages in Christian books.  Her thumb stopped on a page with the words "God loves you."  Tears began to flow down her face as she informed us that she had never heard that phrase before in life.  Naturally, my eyes began to water and so did Shane and Matt's.  This is where her passion dwells: She wants to see women out of polygamy, and she wants them to know that they are loved by God.  This is what her ministry is all about and I couldn't be more excited to spend more time with her this week!


Courtney is going to fill you in on the rest of the day, but I wanted to end with this quote:

"We send Christian missionaries all over the world, but we forget about our own backyard." 

-Doris Hanson

We need more people out here preaching the good news of the true and only gospel of the real Jesus Christ.  Who's in?


Night friends,
Mary




FINALLY IN SALT LAKE CITY 


Well, First day in Salt Lake City-- Nothing could really prepare me for all the emotions I (Courtney) feel actually being a part of this city. 
Mary Shane and Matt had just finished their first interview with Doris Hanson, and raved about how moving her testimony was. I couldn't wait to see what God had in store next! 
First stop?  Rob Sivulka- the founder of mormoninfo.org 
His family was generous enough to invite us into their home to document their interviews. And what a story they had! His wife, Tara Sivulka was raised LDS and struggled with the impossible expectations of the Mormon Church. Struggling with the existence of God, she finally founded Jesus Christ through a Biblical Christians prospective. Later meeting Rob, who found passion in the lost mission field here in Utah, they now run the ministry together as well as host ex-mormon support groups at their home. What a power couple! The most touching moment in the interview was when Tara looked at me straight in the eye and stated, "I have learned over the years that boldness is sometimes more important than friendship. I'm all for friend evangelism but sometimes you need to stand for your faith in order to get your point across to that person. Friendship only goes so far when it comes to eternal salvation." Wow did God speak through that message. I have to stop sugar coating things in fear of hurting people's feelings. Of course respect is always necessary because where respect is, there is love. But it's incredible seeing more and more ministries evolve in the Utah area. Rob basically ended the interview by bluntly stating, "So when are you moving out here?" Soon Rob, very soon! 


McCraney. 
Well... what single word would sum up Shawn? Kooky. But, definitely has his Biblical outlooks straight. I had the privilege of conducting my first interview ever! So that was also very cool. Shawn is the host of Heart of the Matter, which airs on TV 20 in Utah. All 4 seasons of his show can be found on hotm.tv He detailed his life as an LDS member of over 40 years, and his struggle in finding the truth. He definitely didn't sugarcoat anything!  Every question we asked, he backed up with Biblical scripture. Many view him as having a very abrasive approach to reaching the LDS community, but it is all out of love, which was evident in the interview. He made it clear to us that every person has their ministry strengths, and his ministry is TV preaching. He was by far my favorite interview so far because he wasn't afraid to lay his whole life out on the line, even if it meant losing some family members and friends on the way. He was truly an inspiration in calling us to be advocates of Christ and find our passion with the Lord! 


Last stop? Temple Square. 
It was my first time experiencing the city and no matter how much I studied, no matter how many tabs I had in my Book of Mormon and Bible, nothing could really compare to the feelings I felt walking onto those grounds. We were able to converse with 2 sisters who approached us as we walked around the visitor center. We explained to them that we were Christian missionaries interested in discovering more about the LDS faith and history. They welcomed our questions with open arms, but in reality, they didn't really answer any of them. They always repeat the same answer, "Well if you pray, you will receive a good feeling from the Holy Spirit that the Church is true."
"But Sister, I read the Book of Mormon, and I've studied it. Is there any other advice you have for me that would convince me to believe otherwise? Any Biblical scriptures?" 
And that's where it began. One of the Sisters was very understanding and actually had questions about our faith and understanding of God's grace. She was unaware of the passage found in 2 Nephi 25:23 stating, "... to believe in Christ and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved after all we can do?" 
But what is all we can do? We can't do enough compared to the tremendous glory of Jesus Christ. We will never be even close to God's perfection. If it were by our own deeds, then Jesus died on the cross in vain. 


Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." 


And when Mormons ask, well then what does the Bible mean when it talks about works. Jesus answered that exact question in John 6! 


John asked, " Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, 'This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." John 6:28-29. That's pretty self explanatory. 


The conversation ended with Mary asking, I just have a final question, "If you were to die today, do you know where you will be going?" 
- The missionary sisters answered, well we can't know if we've done enough because God is the ultimate judge and we must repent before we can be accepted in his Kingdom. 


Yet the Bible preaches something completely different, and it is so evident that we cannot gain our salvation through our own good deeds! 
 " For sin shall not have dominion over you; for ye are not under the law, but under grace" Romans 6:14. 
" I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law then Christ died in vain." Galatians 2:16


And in present tense. 1 John reads, " And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life add this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life: and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God: that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:11-13. 


It kills me because I have that assurance. I know that God's grace has saved me because without that, I would be damned to hell. So basically, I can bluntly say that no,  I do not believe there is truth in all religions, and that is complete heresy to believe that our works can even measure up to the glory of God. I pray that this trip I can plant seeds, that the people that I encounter can see the peace I have with God. I'm not afraid to share the Truth just as Jesus was hated among his own people, the Jews. 


I love the LDS people with all my heart, and that is why I am doing this. We are all called to minister, and I have found my calling. 




Thank you so much for keeping us all in prayer! 
Please pray for the upcoming storm ahead! 
Pray for: 
- the people we encounter 
- future interviews  
- building relationships 
-witnessing to tourists and non-LDS 
- pray for Shawn, Rob and Doris's ministry 
-Safety! 

With Love, 

 Courtney

www.upfc.org